I heard from many people that they would love to read Destroyer but don’t want other people to see it laying next to their bed or causing attention at postal inspections in surveillance states like the USA. Your prayer was heard :) Issue 6 of Destroyer (more issues will follow hopefully) is available as a digital version in PDF format at I Love Mags. Head over there for more details. Destroyer is more an art project that you should hold in your hands rather than reading it at your PC but this should be a good alternative for people who have to deal with ephebophobia (hey, I just made up this word lol) all over the world.
We can all be reasonable/grown-up/dogmatically libertarian/whatever about it and say that we think Destroyer is not indecent or obscene, but as Josh’s post indicates, things aren’t quite THAT clear cut… and I am sure that English police (and especially customs!) could easily take offence to Destoyer and hassle someone about it something rotten…. and to be honest, at the moment I’m not prepared to walk into a police station or customs office and ask whether they think the magazine is indecent.
So my question is this – has anyone heard (or, better, knows of) someone getting into problems over Destroyer?
Damn, I just read that Ephebophobia is a word already xD
>Damn, I just read that Ephebophobia is a word already xD
Well, sure, why not?
But, fear/despise of adolescent lads? Have yet to encounter.
Mark, you won’t have to walk into a customs office with Destroyer, because I already did. :) This very issue of Destroyer was inspected by German police upon printing, with no objections.
thank you josh
Well Karl, if the Gestapo have no objections to Destroyer, then I’m not interested in it. It is a testament to how unimportant anything in the magazine must be.
I think your real worry is that people will just start passing around the pdf file without going through the hassle of buying it. I don’t want an order for Destroyer showing up on my credit card. The snoops keep lists for future reference in particular in England, America, Iran and Zimbabwe. You should be well aware of that.
Are there bookstores in those countries that carry Destroyer?
I think I already saw a link to a free pdf copy on somebody’s web site. I gotta check.
This is the beauty of usenet, IRC, and the peer-to-peer groups. Everything is free, free, free.
Ephebophobia is a great word…. does it mean fear of adolescents, or specifically fear of adolescent sexuality? There is most DEFINITELY an intense fear of adolescent sexuality in the world today.
I do have to say though… if a government plans on oppressing you for something reasonable, the correct response is to be oppressed. Civil disobedience. Yes, it sucks to be the one having to be noble and get the shaft, but once others see the injustice there’s a chance things can change. If you wimp out and hide, there’s no chance at all that anything will change.
@Randy
The former… too bad :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_youth
@Bob
You were kidding right?
Bob: No, I don’t worry that the pdf file will be shared, since I don’t see file sharing as something negative per se. In fact, if the Destroyer pdf became popular in p2p networks, it could mean that more people discovered the magazine and bought the print copy, which could help me make a profit and create a new issue. I even played with the idea of releasing the pdf for free, but figured that wouldn’t be fair for those who paid 10 euro for their print copy.
And if file sharing *would* prove a problem (which I don’t think), well, then I’d just take that into consideration when releasing (or not releasing) other issues as pdf files. After all, I’ve got requests for digital versions of Destroyer ever since the release in April 2006, but not starting to act upon them until now.
I just realised I write this in my piratebay hood… Which I bought because I’m a fan of file sharing. That’s how I discovered Loveless. After downloading all the episodes for free, I have now bought 7 print volumes at 10 euro each, and probably made some of my readers buy the anime as well, since I’ve written about the series in Destroyer a couple of times. I doubt Loveless even would have been translated to English if it wasn’t for the popularity through file sharing. Like Oscar said: The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
As for the credit card statement, it doesn’t say Destroyer nor I Love Mags. And you don’t have to provide a correct name and address, since the shop uses 3D Secure instead of comparing card address with billing address. Now I’m sure you can find some other reason not to buy it, but then again, you don’t have to.
@Karl
You checked with GERMAN customs… since the UK Government thinks us innocent Brits often need protecting from stuff from Euroland, I will take their approval (or non-disapproval) as demonstration of German liberalism/good sense/whatever :-)
I suspect UK Customs could find the magazine indecent… and I also suspect that UK police might – if not finding the magazine indecent as such – say that it indicates an interest in indecent material and use it as a reason for further snooping.
I’m not saying that it IS – just that I have my worries, and would like to hear of/ from anyone who has had problems with English customs/ploice
“As for the credit card statement, it doesn’t say Destroyer nor I Love Mags.”
Mine said “I Love Mags” and it very nearly got me in a *lot* of trouble.
To be exact:
I LOVE MAGS:COM Berlin
12.00 EUR EXCHANGE RATE x.xxxxxx
:(
@Anon-ouch
Who were you almost in trouble with ?
:)
Anon-ouch, I didn’t know that! When I did my last test-buy it said “KA Media”. Gotta check that. But is it so bad that it says “I love mags”? I was disappointed when my statement said “KA Media” (the name of my company), but thought it would do. So now it’s actually back to how I wanted it originally, let be with bad punctuation.
Mark, I think you’re exaggerating the risks of 1) a letter sent within the EU to be checked by customs and 2) the customs to object to anything in Destroyer. I’m not saying this just cause I want ppl to order my mag. It’s just that I haven’t heard of anyone in Europe having his envelope opened.
Now we can always discuss customs’ customs ;) and I obviously can’t promise anything, but I think having the German police browse D6 is a pretty ambitious way to claim it’s safe. Bottom line remains: If you’re risk averse, don’t order.
PS Mark: Have you seen the mag? Just wondering.
Only one issue of my Destroyer was open of the several I ordered… Not in a baggie but actually open. The rest came intact. The one other European-source-mail was open, and not in a baggie either but actually open.
Do you remember which issue it was, BR♀TH♂R_S♥RR♥WS? I’ve used some different types of envelopes over time and would like to know.
Karl & others not in the U.S/UK:
I don’t think you realize how bad it’s gotten lately. The decency/indecency laws here are so debatable and fluid that something not found to be indecent now could easily become so in the future (and be retroactively applied).
The same paranoia goes for credit card ordering… On the banking side, they keep transaction information for YEARS and our blessed governments, thanks to laws enacted after 9/11, can and will subpoena records — and the bank is forbidden to even notify you they granted the government access to your files. On the seller’s side, records of purchases have been forcefully turned over to authorities and used to identify sting and raid targets.
Sadly, I will not buy anything even remotely controversial online because of this. Now, if someone can direct me to an anonymous, refillable credit card service that’s a different story…
The possible complications that can arise from credit cards and mailings are too numerous to list. The fact that Destroyer is technically legal in many (but far from all) countries does not mean that your name will not end up on lists for future attention and at least in the case of America, England and Australia, police sting operations by LEA.
There has been an ongoing case in Canada for years by the Lesbian bookstore called Twisted Sister which involves a book that is only a written story with no photos or illustrations and which doesn’t even deal with any illegal acts whatsoever. The legal fees when this is all over is likely to bankrupt this business even if they win their case. The Gestapo has many ways to punish those it takes a dim view of.
I would be curious to learn if there are any gay book stores in England, America or Australia that sell Destroyer? For example does Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookstore in NYC carry it? It is my understanding they will call the police on you if you even ask them for it.
Back to the drawing board Karl. You seem not to have learned which way the wind is blowing.
@Karl
I am a proud owner of a printed copy of every edition of Destroyer, Karl. I love the mag :-) I am not risk averse, in fact quite the opposite. I suspect I am about to suffer as a result but hey (nothing to do with Destroyer).
As for opened Destroyer envelopes. None have ever arrived opened. One copy never even arrived though. I reordered and received the reordered copy. I was hoping that there had been a simple delay and that the missing copy would eventually turn up, when I would have left it on a shelf at the Borders I visit regularly. I would never have known what happened if someone tried to buy it, but it was an entertaining thought all the same :-)
I am also interested (for both intellectual and personal reasons) in the indeceny laws (and other laws suppressing sexuality and expressions of sexuality) in operation in the UK. The content of Destroyer wasn’t always to my taste, but I LOVE the fact that it exists. BTW When will you be done with your current project and get the next Destryer out???? :-) But then I guess my relationship to Destroyer was (to me) a little confusing – I’m an “older gentleman”, so I never quite knew if I’m a perve looking on or a welcome guest :-)
@ Paranoid and Bob Bee
The way the wind is blowing…. the UK has just made it illegal to take and permit to be taken (both of which are nonsense) and to make “tracings” of indecent photographs of children. It will also be illegal to show, distribute, posses with a view to shoing or distributing or to advertise that such images are shown or distributed. It is not clear (to me, at any rate) what “tracings” are. The maximum penalty is 10 years imprisonment. This would catch the art of that Dutch guy who made paintings based on cp pics.
After that the next planned action is to make cartoons and paintings and 3d renderings and other depictions of “simulated child abuse” illegal , but under a different law (the maximum punishment will be 3 years or so, instead of 10). I suspect the written word will follow at some point.
@ Mark
Interesting debate. The dutch artist you are referring to is Bernard/Art bernard. I didn’t know those pictures were based on cp.
his art has been seized by dutch police and a court case is due on them, to test their legality. He talks about it on that rinrin page on the img.
The Dutch are on their own Puritanical trip and have been for years now. Wasn’t the Brongersma Stiftung stoned or torched a few years ago, and he was a Dutch Senator. I want to vomit every time I hear someone tell me how accepting and tolerant Holland is. That is all ancient history. Maybe the Netherlands isn’t quite as bad as Iran, Zimbabwe, America or England, but that is only a relative estimation. It’s getting worse just as every other place on earth is.
I seem to remember that Don Mader had some more recent problems on top of the old ones we all remember, and lost most of his work to the Dutch authorities.
The screws tighten… you pays your money and you takes your chances.
A lot of the new draconian legislation around the world is also retroactive.
I wish Karl well with his great magazine, but I wouldn’t keep any copies around my place much less have them sent to me through the mail. Even a pdf version will only be useful if you know how to protect your identity on the internet, and how will you pay for it if you have to use a credit card. Problems galore! No doubt there will be more to come.
Don’t let your ass hang out!
I won’t comment more on Destroyer since a discussion about what would happen in this or that situation will be purely hypothetical or wishful thinking at the best. (But please ask if you have further questions!)
To answer Mark’s question: I might make the next Destroyer next spring. If I feel like it. I must be honest with you all: This thread didn’t exactly boost my creativity. I almost get the impression that you WANT my mag to cause problems, because that would prove you right in your analysis of the current state of affairs (ok, this one was directed to you, Bob). Anyways, “older gentlemen” are more than welcome! :)
You also spurred some general thoughts about silly laws etc:
I’ve written at length about the arbitrarity and stupidity of cp laws, but I’ve come to the stage where I’ve accepted them as a sick reality. A lawyer friend of mine also told me that most laws can be stretched to include almost anything, if pushed to extremes. I didn’t agree, since cp laws are so extremely arbitrary that they play in another league.
Still I got his point. What matters more is how the laws are implemented. If we stare ourselves blind at the prospect that some cp laws would make depictions of Huey, Dewey and Louie illegal since they are minors and show their asses, we miss the point.
Now I’m still a strong critic, but I think the laws’ main purpose is 1) moral, in the sense that it “sends a signal” as for how to live, and lets politicians show that they “do something”, and 2) to make people as paranoid as in this thread.
The cp laws and climate at large have the same function as the secret police in communist Czechoslovakia: The most serious aspect of it wasn’t that it harrassed dissidents, but that it infected the mindset of a whole people, who were constantly watching their steps and thinking they were surveilled, even if they weren’t. This “disease” was so famous that it even got a name (can’t remember which), and now it’s spreading in our “people” as well.
Note: I am NOT trying to diminish the real offences here (neither those of communism nor those of our current oppressor). I have witnessed friends’ and acquaintances’ court proceedings first hand. They range from fines for “silly crimes” to complete life tragedies. I even know one of the people mentioned in this thread personally, though I won’t put more light on his case here than has already been done.
My point is that we shouldn’t paint our world in too dark colors, because that is to victimize ourselves. And no one would be happier than our “enemies” if we do. Remember: Living well is the best revenge.
So Karl, is there a bookstore in England, Canada, Australia or America where I can walk in and buy a copy of Destroyer? (After all, it is written in English.)
If the world is not so dark as you say these days, then it should be available somewhere in those countries without my having to risk my neck having it sent to me or using my credit card to purchase it online. So tell me and I will buy it in a store for cash.
But it would be a shame if you stopped publishing just because of the realities that some of us face living in a very dark world which gets darker by the day. Even Prague isn’t what is was ten years ago! Is there one place getting better, or at the very least not getting worse?
Study the history of fascism carefully, and you will be less inclined to think that we are victimizing ourselves.
Sorry, forgot to reply to this. No, Destroyer is not available in bookstores in those countries for a number of reasons. The biggest of course being that Destroyer de facto IS a very controversial magazine indeed. Controversial isn’t the same as illegal though. You seem to know yourself around pretty well and I think I know which “circle” you belong to – my older peers, which means I have respect for you (and envy you for having lived in the seventies). Then you also know that the gay bookshops have gone the same way as the rest of gay culture in recent decades. They have sorted out the more extreme expressions of homosexuality from their shelves, which is ironic, since the reason they opened was that those books were sorted out from the shelves of mainstream bookshops. Gay went straight and so did the gay bookshops. No news there.
I only approached a few gay bookshop owners with Destroyer, because I got so depressed with the results. I spotted an interesting difference in attitude among those who turned me down though. Younger managers just looked at me with disgust and more or less threw me out of the store. “Is he stupid?” did they seem to think. And more unconsciously: “Does he wanna ruin it for us all? Hasn’t he understood how things are done nowadays?” The older managers who turned me down had a totally different view, because they remembered how diverse gay bookshops used to be. I still remember what one older manager looked like when I left his store. I was still happy and just said “well ok, nevermind, no problem” and smiled. And maybe it was that nice attitude from me that made it so obvious what the manager felt himself: Shame.
That said, a number of gay bookshops sell Destroyer but they are all located in Germany and Amsterdam. Even in Amsterdam there is a huge difference in mindset between the bookshops, as I’m sure you know. It’s the old and the new gay world in conflict.
Now there are many other reasons too that Destroyer isn’t available in more shops. It’s a one man project and I haven’t approached any bookstore for 2 years now. (About half of the about 10 shops that sell Destroyer approached me.)
I think some people are prone to victimize themselves to the extent that they suffer more from that than from the actual situation. Fascism or not. By that I don’t say that these times aren’t fascist. Quite the opposite: I see many similarities to mainly the communist Czechoslovakia (since that’s what I’ve studied). But had I signed the Charta 77, my advise to my peers would still be to make the best of their own situation, along with recognizing the fact that the world indeed is dark. All movements attract people who are in it for the joy of having confirmed that their suffering is justified. That doesn’t say anything about the powers in question.
Then there are certainly big differences between different countries. USA, Australia and the UK are obviously quite extreme both in their laws and the implementation of them. The rest of Europe seems surprisingly relaxed in its implementation, given the strange laws that are suggested. I mean, people worry that authorities might find their Destroyers, but as for me I’ve been waiting 2,5 years now – I mean wouldn’t they begin with me if they wanted to hunt us down? But I’m still waiting. (I really am, I see it as a realistic possibility.)
Sad as it is for me to say, I believe their is no future to a printed boy magazine such as Destroyer.
I suspect reading some of the posts here have depressed Karl. I believe the main problem lies in the fact that Destroyer is a commercial enterprise i.e. money changes hands and the transaction physically ties buyer and seller. As Josh can surely attest, the numbers that visit boy websites are massive and if even a fraction of these people bought destroyer it would be a great success. The reason they don’t is for the reasons mentioned above.
We are all here for the same reason, no matter what age we are (young or old), every one here has the same sexual preference. Milkboys is the success that Destroyer can never be for the simple reason that it is easily accessible, (relatively) anonymous and digital.
I don’t wish to depress you further Karl but the only avenue for Destroyer to be a success is through the anonymous, free and digital format. I don’t know the figures but I doubt it will ever be commercially viable.
And for the record Karl, none of the above is a criticism of you, I believe it is a noble thing you do.
Thank you Karl. It was the 60s and not the 70s that was the “golden era”. By 1972 it was all over but we didn’t realize it until a few years later.
Nevertheless you have a very good understanding of the problem and where we stand vis-a-vis the so-called modern “gay movement” which makes me vomit.
One thing you could do is what some authors of software do and that is to give away the content of Destroyer online as a pdf file and ask for contributions which could take the form of cash in an envelope being sent to you in Prague. But I have no idea how many would actually reach into their pockets to send you a contribution.
On the contrary, I don’t think you are in any danger from authorities anywhere since it is obvious you would win a court case in almost any country that allows free speech, at least in theory. There are several businesses that thrive around an interest in teenage boys and have done so for decades such as Award Films to name only one. But people who order from these places are potential candidates for “sting” operations from LEA since quite often their mailing lists have been infiltrated.
Please continue the fight! My compliments to you!
Thanks Bob. We’ll see what happens with it all. I’m not dependent on financial success when I make Destroyer, since I make it because of other reasons. So I’m happy as long as the printing of the next issue is paid for, which it usually is, despite the Czech crown has become a whole 25 % more expensive than when I printed the first issue.
I would also like to apologize to everyone for hinting at victimization, which indeed is a phenomenon I’ve encountered, but wasn’t called for here. Actually, I was just pissed off. Sorry!
Bob, send me an e-mail.
He probably almost got in trouble that it said I love Mags because his wife doesn’t know he is really a fan of naked teenage boys.
Or he is 45 living with his mom using her credit card and she is too senile to figure out her son is gay.
Be proud of who you are. My family accepted my coming out very well !!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah Ben Dover? Did you tell your family that you like to fuck boys such as the beautiful teenagers printed in Destroyer?
Or did you drag home some poof from the bar and they all cooed “how sweet”?
The following has appeared on my bank statement: “I Love Mags:Com 04 E 4.99″. I use a debit card rather than a credit card and I doubt that the Bank, or anyone else, would know anything about “I Love Mags”. No harm done, but I thought that you might be interested.
Well i hope that other versions come too and what i can see is that still cost money because free its sometimes difficult and i hope you get the issues where my photos are publish(im a photographer you know? ;P)
anyway good news to all hehehe
Hmm, I realized I was going far back into these blog posts but not this far back. Anyway, felt like mentioning that I received notification that Destroyer 8 (I think) is being delivered to me here in the States and for those paranoid amongst us I will let you all know if I have any problems. If you don’t ever hear back from me it either means I’ve died or I’ve been arrested. ~JAY
Must have died. :P